Deconstructing the Programmatic Ecosystem – Webinar Takeaways

In this installment of our monthly webinar series, Katana’s Executive Chairman, Andreas Roell, and Media Director, Laura Wusthoff, shared exclusive learnings about Deconstructing the Programmatic Ecosystem.

Programmatic advertising uses automated technology to purchase and sell media in real-time, giving media buyers access to inventory across desktop, display, mobile (web and apps), social media, video and TV.

Programmatic is primed to have another monumental year in the digital marketing space, with a projected 24% growth to $27.47 billion in 2017. Fueled by improvements in the quality of media inventory available and the sophistication of ad tech solutions, programmatic advertising offers unparalleled opportunities for marketers, capable of integrating rich audience data with ad inventory and targeting.

As more buyers and sellers have become comfortable with the innovative technology, other programmatic ad formats have been adopted. 2017 will be a pivotal year for programmatic mobile video ads, and this ad format is expected to enjoy explosive growth to upwards of $3.89 billion.


This webinar offers an analytical approach to thinking about the programmatic ecosystem, delving into the different inventory sources, campaign optimizations and targeting techniques.

For the full audio and visual webinar, please visit our YouTube channel, or find the visual only SlideShare below.


  • Look at small behaviors that the consumer takes on the customer journey, and make optimizations based on what people are doing leading up to completing your campaign’s goal.
  • Your team should be utilizing Google Analytics, and cross-referencing the data you’re tracking in your platforms with on-site data.
  • Limit the impact of fraud or low-quality programmatic media by applying large-scale analytics to standard media optimization processes.



Andreas Roell serves as the Executive Chairman and co-founder of Katana. Andreas oversees the company’s overall strategy and client implementations. A 17-year digital and advertising veteran, Andreas Roell currently serves on the Board of Directors of the American Advertising Federation, the largest advertising trade association in the World.

LAURA WUSTHOFF, Media Director

A Rutgers University graduate, Laura made her way from New Jersey to San Diego after five years of agency experience. Laura has over a decade of digital media experience, dedicating several years to traditional advertising and seven years to digital advertising. With a penchant for emerging ad technology, Laura recognizes the powerful opportunities that digitization and AI offers, and encourages analytical thinking to derive meaningful insights for our clients’ benefit.

Webinar Transcription:

Andreas Roell: Welcome, everybody to another episode of The Katana Webinar Series. Today, I have the pleasure to have one of our brightest here, Laura Wusthoff. Hello.

Laura Wusthoff: Hi.

Andreas Roell: How are you?

Laura Wusthoff: Doing great.

Andreas Roell: Good. Good to have you. The topic that we have in mind today is around giving you an update about the problematic ecosystem, how we like to call it. But at the end of the day, it’s more about certain type of trends, new tricks, maybe, here and there, certain approaches that hopefully make your life as a brand marketer or as an agency better. As we always strive here at Katana, give you the opportunity to go to advanced levels versus what everybody else is doing.

Please remember, during the course of this conversation that you can submit your questions in your question tab on ‘GoToWebinar’. I’ll look at those on the end of this conversation. Then we’ll be able to pick a few based on the time that are left.

Laura, why don’t you tell us a little bit, kind of like what you do at Katana.

Laura Wusthoff: Sure. I’m the Associate Media Director here, so I run the team, basically, who does all of our programmatic buying, and I try to stay ahead of the trends and the different partnerships that we have and make sure that we’re just doing everything to the quality that we say we’d like to.

Andreas Roell: Okay. You know, an interesting concept that I know that we follow and other people are doing as well, we like to call your team members ‘traders’. Right, or media traders, specifically. What is this all about? Why that word? Why that choice of terminology? What does that mean?

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah. It comes from the investment traders, basically buying and selling shares. Personally, I don’t know that much about that part of it. Because we basically buy inventory that’s being sold on open exchanges, so it’s a bidding model. Also, the real-time nature of it, so as things as are actually happening, we’re bidding and changing and modeling things based off of the insights that we’re getting on the day-to-day. We’re actually, in a sense, trading the media for our clients.

Andreas Roell: Yeah and if you go by your screen, right? There’s a lot of modeling and graphs.

Laura Wusthoff: Yes.

Andreas Roell: … all of that is happening on your screen. Yeah. Okay.

    Andreas Roell: Yeah, I understand. Which kind of leads us into programmatic. I mean, still I would say, how long do you think programmatic is now a generally accepted way of purchasing media? How long has it been around now?

Laura Wusthoff: I’d say it’s still getting accepted, but maybe three years.

Andreas Roell: Three years.

Laura Wusthoff: Or so. Yeah. I think before that people were a little too nervous to enter the space, but now it’s becoming more of a necessity and less of something people are trying.

Andreas Roell: Yeah. In those three years, would you agree with me that there’s still this interesting, how do I say it, levels or variances in terms of understanding what it is all about and how it can be applied? I constantly personally feel that you kind of, as an organization, as a service-solution provider in that space, uses this primarily as an execution model. That you constantly, having this one side of people, I would say 50% of the people who have never had any understanding of the concept and how it works. Then the other 50% of the people who have done it and have pretty good sophistication level at this point.

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah. I think it’s pretty interesting because we’ve done these open discussions with marketers in the area and some of them who are involved everyday in advertising, digital advertising, still ask me what exactly programmatic is and what defines it and what we’re doing differently. It’s really interesting to me that people that even hold really high positions in some of these agencies don’t even know exactly what it is. I think sometimes they’re working with companies that are actually buying programmatically for them, but they don’t know that that actually would be indicated as programmatically.

Andreas Roell: Okay. Great drop off point.

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah.

Andreas Roell: What then, in a simply form of definition, is programmatic advertising?

Laura Wusthoff: If we were to define it, I think a lot of people would define it as being able to purchase media on a platform without communicating with another human being, without having to do the relationship and the negotiating. Or what do you have available? What inventory could I buy? What is the price? Can we negotiate? What added value could I get? It cuts all of that out, so I think at your highest level, that’s what it is. Being able to buy media instantly through a platform without having to actually have those negotiations, but I think it goes much deeper than that because we do think that programmatic is not just display at Katana. We think anything that you could buy in that platform of that nature is programmatic.

Paid social, which is expanding more and more, which paid social platforms you can buy programmatically …

Andreas Roell: Beyond Facebook, right?

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah. Absolutely. Instagram, SnapChat, things like that. Paid search, because that was the first programmatic platform. That’s where people were buying media in real time, just putting a credit card in and running with campaigns as soon as they’re set up, ready to go. I think really it’s having the structures in place to be able to automate the process. I think that people have the misunderstanding that programmatic is this artificial intelligence. You just put your campaign parameters in and it just goes, but it’s not like that.

Having the actual ability to automate the things that you want to automate and seeing the predictability and having the knowledge to be able to automate the right things is what allows it actually going to a programmatic ecosystem.

Andreas Roell: Okay. You already addressed some of the confusion people have. Anything you want to add to that?

Laura Wusthoff: I think people are afraid of the space almost dying because it’s going to be too automated, which I think is not true at all. I think we’ll touch on this a little bit more, sure. If you don’t have the right people with the right education and the right background doing these things, they’re just going to fail. There’s no way to get a computer process to be able to automate everything because there’s different levels of goal values and there’s different decisions that need to be made. I think making sure you have that right alignment between human and machine is when you’re really going to be in that sweet spot and have campaigns actually perform well.

Andreas Roell: Okay. Mindset of people? What type of mindset? People like you, huh?

Laura Wusthoff: I’m thinking of the teams I’ve worked with.

Andreas Roell: Tell us who you are.

Laura Wusthoff: We’re a little geeky. We’re a little nerdy. We love numbers. We love the psychographics of what’s happening to people and why people are purchasing when they purchase. We just love seeing things that surprise us and having new technologies and new abilities for things that we’ve never been able to do before. We dive into the unknown. I think that’s a huge part of it. I used to work in traditional advertising, and I stepped out of it because I didn’t like it being stale. I wanted to keep learning new things and granted, sometimes the platform will change or we’ll have to start using a platform we’ve never used before, but those are the best people in the field. They’re the ones who get really excited about the industry pivoting and new and cool and exciting things happening.

Andreas Roell: So it’s individuals, the profile of the individuals that do well, in your opinion, I hear, are people that have a tendency towards constantly being in the dune of a campaign. They always want to see how they can improve. They are technically versed. Right? We’re talking technically versed also beyond … When you buy traditionally via a publisher directly, what I call the ‘insertion order approach’, we’re talking another level of technically sophistication. Right? Probably?

Laura Wusthoff: Yes. I mean, you will have to go into an interface that you’ve never used before. You’re spending someone else’s money, and you have to be competent and confident enough to do it the right way and to know that you’re going to be able to learn the ins and outs. It can be a struggle at times but that’s the only that you’re going to be ahead of the curve for what people are doing. It’s not a field where people are going to teach you how to do these things. I think that’s also where a lot of collaboration really helps because my team uses so many platforms. We’re constantly helping one another. I think it’s a real advantage to not silo people into doing only one platform because it makes them really able to just jump into new things and jump ahead.

Andreas Roell: I think that is a very key point that you’re making. We’ve really, at the end of the day, what programmatic advertising, in my opinion has done has created almost this open platform of plugging tools in. The rate of innovation around these tools and the amount of tools is ever increasing. Right? How do you find that integration? How do you find the consistency that will allow you to have, I guess, almost a certain methodology that you even continue on an ongoing basis versus being erratic in terms of your clerks. Right?

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah. I think that with a lot of the platforms, you kind of learn different points to the systems that you can create that will be applied across all platforms. They’re all different, but I think there’s a few key things that, once you learn, they do transfer well to other platforms. We use some of the paid search things that we’ve learned with people on our team that have been doing paid search since it started, that we could actually move that information and try it on our DSPs and then try it when we do PMP or Site Direct or maybe not Site Direct.Try it through the paid social channels and sometimes we see things that don’t work on paid social and things that work on DSP only, but I think just having the know-how for what different structures you can put in place really helps you when you’re trying something new.

Andreas Roell: Okay. We’ll come back to some of the terminology that you just threw around.

Laura Wusthoff: Sure.

Andreas Roell: Have you seen an uptake in PMP, so private marketplaces?

Laura Wusthoff: Definitely. It’s still somewhat limited, but most of the inventory partners that we talk to are pushing their own PMP inventory really strong and making it really easy for us to even go to sites and then have them be able to integrate in a PMP with what we’re using programmatically. There’s also a lot of different ways you could do it. Open X offers something where it’s a guaranteed PMP. Rubicon offers something where you could buy PMP inventory directly through them. It’s definitely becoming more robust and kind of bridging that gap between site-direct and robotic.

Andreas Roell: You have brought up PMP earlier. P stand for?

Laura Wusthoff: Private marketplace.

Andreas Roell: Private marketplace. Could you explain real quick what private marketplaces are?

Laura Wusthoff: Sure. It’s basically sites, publishers, that don’t have their inventory on the open exchanges, but they still want to be able to sell it in an RTB fashion, real-time bidding fashion. They will offer different segments of the site for a private marketplace, so instead of being on the open exchanges where there’s not pricing floor, you just say what you’re willing to spend for it, they allow this inventory that they hold a little closer to them. Like I said, they don’t want to open it on the open exchanges. There is a floor, so you have to pay minimum $6, $7, $4, so they know that they’ll make at least that much money from the inventory, but you can buy it through the programs, through the DSPs that we’re buying now.

Andreas Roell: In terms of confusion, there’s one more point that I wanted to make and would love to get your opinion. Part of what I see around confusion is also what I call ‘access point to inventory’. All right. There’s this whole concept around programmatic and pretty much everybody being a brand marketer, or an agency says they do programmatic, but when you start diving in deeper, you realize at the end of the day, they don’t have direct access to the programmatic inventory, to the DSPs. Demands high platforms. Out of that, you get a lot of delay of optimization. You probably get a lot of lack of information because they’re being funneled through another entity.

The other piece is around the pricing difference. I mean, there’s a lot of margin play that happens that people are not aware of that is being taken, etc, etc. You want to comment around that?

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is the lack of control that you have. When I’ve worked with DSPs without actually being on them myself, I would get these shortlist reports of optimizations that were made and levers that they would pull. Being in it now everyday, I see that there’s such a vast array of things that they could be doing, and maybe we’re doing, that I didn’t get any insight into at all. That’s partially their job. They’re supposed to be maintaining and managing it for us, but someone like me who wants control and wants to see everything, now that I know all of that was accessible and I wasn’t getting any insight into, I don’t even know how I could go back to it, running campaigns that way.

Then we would notice that we would see a dip in our performance, maybe five days in, and it would dip. Then we’d go talk to our managed service, and we’d say, “What’s happening?” Then we would notice it would just get better. I don’t know. I don’t know how often they were actually looking at what we were doing. The fact that once we would kind of be a squeaky wheel about it, things would get better, kind of just illustrated to me that that’s when they were making those changes and those improvements.

Being in it everyday, I know that I can look at those numbers every single day. I can get as granular as I need to be, and I have way more control over what I’m seeing. Then there’s also way more transparency. I can look at different sites, I can look at the reporting in such small detail that I never could before.

Then the markups. It’s true that it’s a little bit of a black box when you’re working with some of these providers.

Andreas Roell: Middle men.

Laura Wusthoff: Some of the middle men. Yeah. Where it’s just you get a max CPM that you would hit or maybe even a flat cost, and you don’t get any insight into actually what you’re paying for that and what they’re getting for it on the exchanges.

Andreas Roell: Learning that I heard from you is make sure that you truly understand if your internal team or your third-party team that you hire has direct access to DSPs or inventory sources. Correct?

Laura Wusthoff: I was more referring to if you’re working with someone that does have direct access versus yourself. There’s so many different types of ways that you could do it. There are companies that have access to a few DSPs. There are companies that don’t have access to a DSP, but they have their own technology where they’re coming up with their own audiences but it’s just one type of audience. I think it could go so many different ways, but there are many benefits to actually having access to your own DSP. Part of it is that transparency and that control and that level of detail that you get to see.

Andreas Roell: Okay. Now assume that I am a brand marketer called X right.

Laura Wusthoff: That’s all you got?

Andreas Roell: I think of X. I have done programmatic. It has been a line item on my media plan, but it’s a new year. I’m deciding I’m going to put more into that because I believe in the real-timeness and the controls and all the things that you were talking about. I want to work with somebody. Either I want to bring people in or I would like to hire an agency. What are, in you opinion, the critical elements I should look out for?

Laura Wusthoff: I think the first one would be the resourcing and the staff for it because there’s a lot of people that know paid search, for example, paid social. In transitioning into doing programmatic displays very different. I think if you don’t know certain things to look out for, you could potentially really hurt campaigns. Unfortunately, even the guidance that we get at times from our reps at our DSPs, it’s not the level of detail that we’re really looking for. If you don’t know, historically, what contextual targeting providers work well or what third-party data is too expensive to be paying for or even how granular to get with your site lists, how often to be optimizing, you can really hinder the performance of the campaign.

I think that the most important thing is are you staffing up correctly? Do you have enough people to really be looking at all the details of the campaign?

Andreas Roell: The data flow.

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah, exactly.

Andreas Roell: Yeah.

Laura Wusthoff: Are you looking at it at the right time periods? Do you have enough budget to run for two weeks and then make optimizations or are the budgets too small, and you’re optimizing too quickly? In which case, you’re not using the data correctly. Again, you could be hurting the campaign.

I think having the right resources, the right staff, people who are educated. It’s kind of joke here because we’ve heard things saying you could teach yourself programmatic in two days and it’s just not true. It is complicated. It is a complex way to advertise, and I think you need to respect how much goes into it and the nuances of it and make sure that you’re learning everything that you need to learn to run campaigns.

Andreas Roell: That’s the people side. What else do I need to look out for?

Laura Wusthoff: You should know what platform that you want to be using.

Andreas Roell: Okay. Which DSPs, you mean?

Laura Wusthoff: Which DSPs. Yeah. I think because programmatic has become such a buzz word, a lot of companies have purchased small DSPs just to say that they have it. Even some that are managed service will have a DSP in case that’s what you’re interested in. They talk about how they can manage it for you and slowly integrate you but then that DSP that you’re using might not actually be the best one to be using for the technology of the platform.

You want to make sure because there are issues that happen all the time, especially because a lot of these technologies are constantly improving themselves. You want to make sure that you have resourcing within the actual DSP too, and that you have people that you can talk to.

Andreas Roell: Okay.

Laura Wusthoff: Then you want to make sure that you have, that your clients are putting enough money into programmatic because it is pretty time-intensive.

Andreas Roell: You shared with us a little bit of blueprint. Right? How you set up campaigns. What have you seen, the mistakes people make? That can come in forms of you just witnessing it by observing or by taking over campaigns. What do you see, typically, people make mistakes in?

Laura Wusthoff: There’s a lot of things.

Andreas Roell: Sure. The top ones. The obvious ones that people shouldn’t do.

Laura Wusthoff: They’re really large audiences that you could advertise to when you’re doing programmatic display, and I think that people don’t realize how quickly you could spend money to have broad audience. Typically, we don’t want to advertise to a really broad audience. We’ll use that, like I said, at the beginning to collect some data. There are times that we do want to just do mass reach campaigns, but you could just spend really quickly if you allow your campaigns to just be going towards what you think would be great audience you think you want to target. Others who make the buying decisions, and the you turn the campaign on, and then four hours later, you’ve spent through 25% of your monthly budget.

There’s other little nuances, little buttons to push and little things that you have to make sure are checked off. We did a campaign where we only wanted to geo-target certain buildings in Las Vegas. We were geo-targeting those buildings. We were also geo-targeting every other building because it was just literally checking a little box and it can shift your whole campaign focus. Things like that.

Also making sure that you have the proper block lists. As much as you want to make sure you’re targeting the right audiences, you also want to make sure that you’re not targeting fraudulent sites or sites that have a lot of click bait, things like that. You need to make sure that those fences are in place when you’re going to run campaigns as well. It’s just as important to make sure that you’re running to the right places as it is to make sure that you’re not running to the wrong places. You want to have any fraud checks in place. You want to have your viewability up. You want to make sure that the ads are going in front of the right audiences in a protected basis.

Andreas Roell: You brought viewability. What are your expectations on viewability or your benchmarks that you’re looking for in campaigns?

Laura Wusthoff: Well, personally, I think it’s great that we’re moving more towards having higher expectations for our ads, but I think with that comes … You need to understand that if you only fit on 90% viewability, what you have is going to severely decrease, and it could actually end up hurting the cost-efficiency of your campaign dramatically.

I try to go for a 40, 50% to start. We do see sometimes it works to increase that even further. It’s really easy to do now because it is really standard across display. I think it’s a real important conversation to have with clients when they expect you to have 100% viewability. I try to bring it back kind of to the traditional. I think, again, clients relate really well to talking about traditional, especially some of our clients that we’re bringing them into digital. I talk about buying billboards, and no one’s ever going to see 100% of your billboards. You’re still going to buy them and it’s still a great place to advertise, so it’s really similar with what we’re doing.

Andreas Roell: It sounds like part of what you’re doing with your campaigns is you just accept an element of waste, I guess, which is obviously accounted for when you do do optimization.

Laura Wusthoff: Of course. We take everything into consideration. Viewability is something that we’ll test as well. We’ll try it at 40%, bump it up to 50 and higher and see if we’re actually getting a lower CPA or a higher CPA based on making these changes within viewability. You will increase your cost, reduce your inventory too.

Andreas Roell: Yeah. Another layer of optimization, another lever point, is viewability. How many levers do you think you run, people should run, people are not running? What’s your take on that in terms of count and complexity that we’ve moved to?

Laura Wusthoff: There’s a lot. I think there’s more in programmatic display than there are with other channels because we have different inventory sources, whereas, if you’re running with Google, Facebook, that’s your inventory source.

Andreas Roell: Yeah.

Laura Wusthoff: We have so many different layers of third-party data that we’re adding, so there’s many different levels that we can optimize within those layers. Then, your standard layers, I mean your geo, your time of day, day of week, device, and then you can even get down to browsers on device. I think that if you get too granular, unless you have really, really large budgets, it might not help the campaign, but I think you should generally be probably looking at at least 10 all the time.

Andreas Roell: Okay. Very good. One of the myths around programmatic still to this point is this whole concept that only bad inventory … For quality inventory is what programmatic is all about. What’s your take on that? How do you feel it has evolved over periods of time?

Laura Wusthoff: I think it started with corporate remnant inventory. That’s what it was. That’s what was being sold, but I think it’s moved so far beyond that because now almost all publishers have their inventory being sold programmatically. It’s just efficient for them. It’s selling. It’s efficient for us as buying. I think most of the top 100 sites have their inventory being purchased programmatically, so I think it’s just something that started. I think it’s something that we’ve definitely moved away from whether people understand that yet. Maybe not, but it’s definitely something that is no longer a problem especially since there are so many different checks that we have in place. Checks and balances and things like integral ad science and all of these different partnerships that we use to make sure the inventory we’re using is quality.

I think it’s definitely different than what it used to be. Also, there’s fraud on our sites that we buy programmatically and there’s fraud on site direct. That’s not something that’s going away completely when you buy differently, so I think it’s just the problems that are there are kind of there everywhere.

Andreas Roell: One more question before we turn to the questions people submitted. The question I have is: is there a specific new targeting technique that you feel has emerged that is of interest that you’ve seen work or people should look out for? Maybe even a data source of some type?

Laura Wusthoff: Let’s see. I mean, there’s lots of new ones. I’m trying to see what I think is the best. I think my favorite right now, if that’s an applicable answer …

Andreas Roell: Yes, it is.

Laura Wusthoff: …would be historical lat-long targeting. We actually can just essentially geo-fence different places. Buildings. We’ll do it for conferences. We can say, people visited this area at this time over the course of three days and then we’ll make an audience of those people. Then we can target to them later on knowing that they just had visited this place. It gets a lot more specific than that. They could say, well if they visit a certain type of store at a certain number of times a week, we know that if you go to a day care five times a week, you probably have a child that’s that age. We can get really specific, just using the data for people who visit certain places. The fact that we customize what places we want it to be. It’s not just standard segments. I love that we have found a way to use it for most of our clients.

Andreas Roell: Great. Thank you. Thank you, Laura. Let me just look at the submissions of the questions we got from our listeners. Here’s one. Would you be willing to share one or two tricks that provide better results for you in a campaign?

Laura Wusthoff: Sure. When we set up campaigns, sometimes, for example, we have a furniture store that we work with and it’s a pretty big purchase. When we were first getting started, a lot of people weren’t buying it online. You want to be able to optimize toward something. I think being able to look at small figures that lead up to purchase are really important. Making sure in your system that you can optimize towards those, so instead of just waiting and looking at click-through rate and things like that, make sure you look at the path to purchase or you look at the customer journey and that you’re able to actually make optimizations and make insights and inferences based on what people are doing and what the consumers are actually doing leading up to the actual event that you’re looking for.

I think making sure that you have people on your team or that you’re looking at Google Analytics data is really important. I have worked at a lot of agencies where the media team or the account team didn’t really utilize Google Analytics and it’s such a universal tool that everyone should be looking at. I think making sure that you have, not just an understanding, but a hands-on …

Andreas Roell: Use?

Laura Wusthoff: Use. Yeah. Making sure that you’re using it everyday is really helpful. I think it’ll really actually help your campaigns out. You want to cross-reference the data that you’re tracking in your platforms with the actual onsite data. If we’re looking at clicks and then people are bouncing off, I mean how quality is that that you’re looking at. You want to see, even if people are putting things in shopping carts, what’s the value of what they’re buying, I think making sure that you’re just getting a little more deep-rooted into your campaigns and understanding the consumers is really helpful.

Andreas Roell: Okay. I think we only have time for one more question, so I’m going to give you the big one.

Laura Wusthoff: Okay.

Andreas Roell: The big one is: where do you foresee programmatic will go over the next five years?

Laura Wusthoff: I’m really excited about this. Like I said, I used to work in traditional, and I love seeing everything that we’re able to buy programmatically. It’s getting to the point where you can buy billboards programmatically, TV programmatically, and I just hope and foresee that there’s going to be this entire blending of just media. It’s not going to be traditional and it’s not going to be digital. It’s going to be ‘media’. You’ll be able to pretty much buy everything on the platforms, buy everything instantly, and everything will have data that leads back to it.

Andreas Roell: You can apply the same methodology or uniform methodology against it, feed data sources into it, so overlay audiences in a uniform way, all of that. That’s what you’re seeing?

Laura Wusthoff: Exactly. Just being able to use smarter advertising everywhere.

Andreas Roell: Yeah.

Laura Wusthoff: I think we’ll be able to use across devices is going to become all media that someone sees within a day. The insights that we’ll be able to gain based on what someone did as soon as they got up and looked at their phone; and then drove and what they see while they’re driving; what they do in their car. We’ll be able to have a much better understanding of who someone is and what they do and be able to target people.

Andreas Roell: I mean, that’s my belief as well. You have a connected user journey path, connection path plan around an individual, and you will be able to reach a person programmatically, based on your answer, through various different channels.

Laura Wusthoff: Mm-hmm.

Andreas Roell: One interesting one for me that I want to add is an up-and-coming audio related channel, if you will. Audio, specifically, is the voice-recognition, AI pieces that are coming out with Amazon Echo, Google Home, and such. I do believe that that will become a new advertising channel …

Laura Wusthoff: Absolutely.

Andreas Roell: …that has not been explored at this point.

Laura Wusthoff: I just heard something about how they’re trying to see legally what they can listen to and what they can do with that.

Andreas Roell: Right.

Laura Wusthoff: Yeah. I think also with that, if you have another 30 seconds, I think that with people pushing back on advertising and pushing back on websites that are just flooded with ads and having a bad user experience, that coinciding with native becoming more popular, I think the way of what people will accept in the way of advertising is going to change. I think that people are going to have to just get smarter with the ads that they’ll serve or else people are going to have more ad blockers and things like that.

If we’re going to be advertising in more places, like we just said, I think it’s going to have to be a more pleasant experience.

Andreas Roell: Sounds like we have to have you come back. There’s more topics that you’re not bringing up. Thank you so much. I appreciate all your insight. I hope our audience enjoyed this conversation as much as I have, or hopefully even more. Please remember Katana Media’s purpose is to provide advanced digital medium solutions to brands and to agencies alike. You can contact us at any point under, and we’re always happy to hear your latest marketing challenge because that drives people like Laura, who you met today, in a stimulated way.

Thank you so much, and talk to you soon.